Black Sails, better late than never

[dorinda]

Friends of mine watch and have spoken highly of "Black Sails", but true to my usual form, I'm only just now catching up. And I really like it!

I admit, I tried the pilot when it was first out, but it didn't grab me. And I didn't make the time to watch the next few, even though I know that of course every pilot has some degree of pilotitis and is not the best example of a show.

Though I'm not sure if even watching the next few would have helped me back then. It took me most of season 1 to actually get to know the characters, get emotionally attached, etc.--up to then, I was kind of making myself watch. Luckily I have friends way ahead of me who served as my bellwethers, watching & enjoying in real time, which implied good things down the road. (I often depend on my friends like this, for fic as well as canon, and I'd like to take this opportunity to thank them for doing the hard work so that I may so often slide in late. :D ♥ )


I'm up to 2x02 in my own viewing, but because of gifsets and general fannish osmosis, I know what happens in Flint/McGraw's flashbacks. I have to assume that the writers had that plan all along, because it's a spectacular job of laying groundwork that we don't quite know is groundwork. So then you can rewatch season 1 and half of season 2 and it's a whole new show.

Like, the very early argument Flint has with Miranda about loaning that copy of Marcus Aurelius to the governor on house arrest. In its original context, it doesn't really jump out; it's part of a bigger argument they're having. But season 2 recontextualizes it LIKE WOAH, and then there's a whole entire other emotional thing going on there, and a powerful one. My hat is really off to the writers.

Flint is, not surprisingly, my favorite character. The Star Wars prequels only wish they had as nuanced a grasp on being able to write a character's present, and then his past showing seeds of his tragic present, all of which is twining together to show the seeds of his more tragic future (if they're aiming for solid Treasure Island book canon). Yow. Also, it seems to me that Flint has more complexity and depth than your normal alpha-male-rageball. I mean, he is an alpha-male-rageball, don't get me wrong. :D But his decisiveness and competence is not superhumanly perfect, and he doesn't stride through the world without mistakes. Lots of times the alpha-male-rageball type of character is only opposed by circumstance, by superpowered enemies, never by himself/his flaws, and that can be a yawningly flat story.

But Flint is opposed not just by circumstance, but also by his own mistakes, or his own pride, or by misunderstandings and secrets, etc.--all very human and fallible things. I was particularly struck by his last fight with Gates. If Gates goes out the door, Flint is likely to be done for, and the mission he has his soul set on is ruined. So he launches himself at Gates. But the effect of hulking out like that is too terrible, leaving Flint cradling Gates on the floor in sorrow and despair. So that when Silver comes in and is like, hey, how about a new plan, at first Flint is just like GO AWAY AND LEAVE ME HERE TO SUFFER--unable to actually reap the reward of the terrible thing he just did. It was a fascinating fragility in this particular alpha-male-rageball.

I'm warming up to Silver. Early in season 1 he felt like a much more interchangeable TV character I had seen on other shows, the "grinning rogue" template. Not that I mind a grinning rogue, but I want something individual I can connect to--and as above, I want to know more about the vulnerabilities, the unique edges and layers. I think his interactions with Flint are very useful in bringing those out.

I'm interested in most of the other main characters, probably in the order of Jack, Anne, Max, Charles, Eleanor. Jack is a nice contrast to the other male characters, in that he doesn't pose as an alpha male, so he brings a different texture. Anne, as the resident alpha-female-rageball, is just now adding some more complications, in her interactions with Max, which promise to add some more angles and layers to her.

Max's plotline was really rough for a while there--I mean, the first half (I think?) of season 1 was SO. SO. RAPEY. But due to Max having increasingly interesting characterization (rather than being a "raped prostitute" template), and the way she handled the culmination of the rapiest part of the plotline, I stuck around.

I gotta say, Charles and Eleanor are the ones who interest me the least at present. I suppose I'm just not into the slap-slap/kiss-kiss/slap-slap dynamic, and that's most of what they seem to have been doing so far. Charles growls, Eleanor flares her nostrils, they fight, they have lost love glowing in their enraged eyes as they argue, one of them temporarily defeats the other, rinse and repeat. But then, the scripts don't help poor Eleanor win me over, when they force her storylines to mostly be about merchandise and committee meetings. Sorry, Eleanor! I applaud you for being committed to your job!



So... sorry I'm so late, but if anybody wants to talk about Black Sails, I'm here for you! I mean, I'm still in season 2, but I'm proceeding, and I don't mind spoilers. And as I guess you can tell from my meanderings above, I'm pretty up for talking. :D

Comments

[sakana17]

I reeeeeallllly gotta watch season 3, I remind myself, because I do enjoy this show. <3 For a while it was All.About.Flint for me, I have to admit. He's so complex, and the backstory we get in season 2 made him all the moreso.

I warmed to both Silver and Charles Vane over the course of two seasons, though I know what you mean about the Vane/Eleanor storyline. *yawn*

I still struggle to care about Eleanor. She does some interesting things once in a while, then does some really dumb things and I lose interest again.

I appreciate that they nudged Silver into a bit more than just the Grinning Rogue (perfect description!). He's still a rogue, but there's more to him than that.

[dorinda]

Maybe I'll catch up in time for us to watch season 3 concurrently. :D

Oh yeah, Flint is my very favorite, and he's the one whose scenes always remain reliably interesting and involving for me no matter what's happening. The other characters, it's a tossup--sometimes they're enmeshed in things I find pretty boring, or they hit the same beats over and over again, tick-tock tick-tock. But Flint always has something going on--if not in the surface-level storyline, then always in his relations with other people, and the layers within himself, behind his eyes.

I hear season 2 will give me more to work with re: Vane, so I look forward to that. I will say that I appreciate them stripping him off, he can be nice to look at. And we even got a little glimpse of frontal nudity from him, as a token to go along with the gajillion shots of naked women.

And yeah, argh, re: Eleanor doing dumb things. At the beginning of the show, I thought she was someone who had a firmer grip on the place, on her work, on her clientele so to speak, etc. I guess I expected her to be the alpha-female, or at least that the storyline would show her growing into that role. And I was ready to find that refreshing, to see her holding her own. But very shortly it was shown that her position is fragile, rocky, easily disrupted, etc., and she as a character likewise. Alas.

I'm sure I'll enjoy seeing Silver's layers unfold. And eventually I'll be able to read movies_michelle's story!

[sakana17]

Maybe I'll catch up in time for us to watch season 3 concurrently. :D

When you get to the point of starting season 3, give me a shout-out and we can sync watching. In the meantime, I'd be interested in your reactions when you get through the rest of season 2...

[movies_michelle]

As you probably have guessed, I love Flint. :-) I think one of the things which I find the most interesting is how, in hindsight especially, complex his relationship with Miranda is. The Big Reveal makes it all make a lot more sense, but also adds so many layers to it.

I love him cradling Gates' body and just being so fucking broken. I. Love. It. I think partly because it was a spur-of-the-moment act of desperation, but it was also that or surrender. I think it was more painful to him that Gates wasn't planning on helping the crew kill him, but to instead help him to escape. To give up. And he's so over the edge obsessed at that moment, so focused on his goal, that there would be nothing worse than just walking away to an easier life.

I love Vane, partly because like everyone else you get the layers to him, and like everyone else you get a slightly different view of him with each season.

Re: Jack--He's awesome! He's almost as smart as he thinks he is, but he's vulnerable in these weird and unexpected ways. He's also strong in unexpected ways, too. And I love his relationship with Anne.

I won't say much about Silver other than that he will get more interesting. And his relationship with Flint gets MUCH more interesting.

(Still no Black Sails icon. I should see if I can find my Cannon Matters icon again, though.)

[dorinda]

I did get that impression! :D And agreed on the complexities of his relationship with Miranda. Which is yet another thing that's sooooo interesting and refreshing--like, interactions between men and women are of course all over the TV and movies, but it feels like almost all the time they're written as something purely modular. Setting 1: family. Setting 2: romance. Setting 3: predator-prey. (There's hardly ever a setting 4: friends, as you must have heard me complain about...it mostly seems like any attempt at 'friends' is just prepping for romance.) Little nuance within or between any of them, more often just a toggle switch that clicks over. But this show takes what might've been a predictable dynamic and explodes it into so many subtleties and questions, including antagonistic ones.

Oh man, I had to rewatch that last scene with Gates several times before I could continue. It was amazing. It felt like at that point, Gates was his only friend, insofar as he had friends. And he asked Gates not to do it--which was amazing to me, as it didn't seem like Captain Rageball Flint ever says Please to anybody.

And as you point out, this was quite the twist!:

I think it was more painful to him that Gates wasn't planning on helping the crew kill him, but to instead help him to escape. To give up.

Yes! I mean, in the end I felt like Gates saying 'I'll sneak you away so you can have your pardon and go to Boston with her' actually sealed his death warrant. Because struggling with the crew, arguing them round, facing disapprobation, even facing death, that's one thing. Flint handles things like that in his life--even when they're hard, they're part of the cost of doing business (including his own idealistic secret business). But the pardon and Boston? That's the exact opposite of anything he wants, and the ruin of everything he feels he's been fighting for in one fell swoop. And I basically think he panicked.

So I wonder, if Gates had said (to his mind, the worse option), "Afterward I'm putting you under arrest so the crew can try you", instead of being what he thought was sympathetic and honoring their friendship, might Flint not have snapped to that degree? And there's no way Gates could have known that, which makes it so tragic.

I look forward to seeing more of Silver! And when will I be far enough along to read your story??

[movies_michelle]

Re: complex relationships: One of the things that I really liked in first season was the scene with drunk!Flint and Eleanor, after Flint's hissy at Miranda and storming off in a huff. (And, wow, does his whole rant of refusing to apologize to England, and how they made him the monster, and Miranda's parting shot of "If he were here, he'd agree with me!" become about 1000x more painful after seeing ep 13.) Eleanor obviously has this immature crush at that point on Flint, and Flint's just so totally desolate, and I had this fear through the entire scene the first time that they were going to have sex or make out, because that's what two people of the opposite sex normally do in high-emotion scenes on tv! And then he kissed her forehead and left, and I was, "YAY! NO CREEPY SEXY TIMES!" and also "Wow, that was...interesting!" Because it kind of diffused this moment without saying anything directly about their relationship while saying EVERYTHING about it.

Re: Gates: I think Flint can handle--and even wants at times--dying in battle/at the hands of his crew/however more than he can the idea of surrender. Surrender is not just failure, it's a betrayal. He's obsessed with what he is doing for a very specific reason, and once you realize what it is, it all kind of makes you go, "OH!"

I do think every season looks at each character in a slightly different way. I also think the series (just to go Doylian on you for a second) is, itself, about storytelling: the stories that people tell and how that shapes reality. How stories take on a life of their own. It's also that each character on the show has either previously or is currently redefining who they themselves are. It's especially obvious with Silver and Flint, obviously, but it really is true with everyone else, as well.

Unfortunately, my story is set post-third season. I am, however, working on a first season-set first time with Silver/Flint, which I may some day actually finish. Today's writing-at-lunch I finished...a sentence! Blergh.

[dorinda]

Gads yes, that argument with Miranda, in hindsight, tears my heart out and hops up and down on it in spiky shoes. :((((( A perfect example of how they recontextualized their own show--the "monster" he's talking about, for instance. Oh my poor darling rageball.

Re: the scene with drunk, weary Flint and Eleanor:

and I had this fear through the entire scene the first time that they were going to have sex or make out, because that's what two people of the opposite sex normally do in high-emotion scenes on tv!

OMG ME TOO. And I had the exact same thought pattern. I was like, ugh, eyeroll, now of course THESE two will sleep together, because THAT'S how men and women have to interact on TV.

And then they didn't, and he kissed her forehead and left, and Black Sails totally schooled me about whether it's like all the other TV. :D I thought the tension was very finely calibrated in that scene by the actors: through tiny subtleties, it seems to get across that Eleanor is up for it, but Flint isn't. His forehead-kiss and departure doesn't at all come across as, you know, "I want to sleep with you but must not so I will barely restrain myself", which it easily could have. And that's some very nuanced and excellent acting, handled underneath the dialogue, with bodies and faces and timing and physical space.

Totally agreed, re: Flint much more easily handling death than surrender/betrayal. Gates unfortunately backed him into the total wrong corner there.

about storytelling: the stories that people tell and how that shapes reality

That's an interesting thought! I'll definitely have that in the back of my mind as I continue to watch.

Unfortunately, my story is set post-third season.

Well, I'll get there, and it's good to have a treat to look forward to.

I am, however, working on a first season-set first time with Silver/Flint, which I may some day actually finish

YAAAAAAAAY

Today's writing-at-lunch I finished...a sentence! Blergh.

That's one more sentence than you had before! I'm never able to properly write at work, so my hat is off to you. My piratey hat. *doff*

[movies_michelle]

Gads yes, that argument with Miranda, in hindsight, tears my heart out and hops up and down on it in spiky shoes. :((((( A perfect example of how they recontextualized their own show--the "monster" he's talking about, for instance. Oh my poor darling rageball.

There seems to be layers to that, too: both the fact that he hates the idea of being the villain and the things he's done in pursuit of his goal, but also that it is about why he was driven out of England. His animosity towards England is staggering.

(If you haven't seen them, Starz has these little 2 minute "behind the scenes" bits with the showrunners at the end of each episode, which are also on the BluRays, which are really interesting. The one they did for episode XIII, they talked about how from the beginning they did have Flint's backstory planned, but that they wanted his "secret" to be something so intrinsic to who he is, England's "rejection" became personal. And I liked how they contextualized it, too: that his sexuality was just a tool to get him out of the way because he was politically inconvenient, rather than being the real reason he was gotten rid of. That that made it even more painful and insulting, somehow.)

Re the scene with drunk!Flint and Eleanor again: I honestly don't think it even ever occurred to him that Eleanor had this crush on him or expectation of anything. I don't know if it's that he's channeled absolutely everything to his goal and his anger, if he's just got zero interest, or what, but I find it interesting.

When I say I finished a sentence, I mean that: I'd apparently left the document mid-sentence at one point, and I just went back and finished it. But, yes, it's moving--glacially.

[dorinda]

Oooh, I haven't seen the behind-the-scenes things! I will keep my eyes out for them. Maybe Santa will bring me Blu-rays, or next time I see you perhaps I will make puppy eyes at you until you show me them. O___O

I love their thoughts on the backstory. It just all fits and works so well, and by well, I mean OKAY GO AHEAD RIP OUT MY HEART AND DICE IT FOR HAM AND EGGS WHY DON'T YOU.

I don't know if it's that he's channeled absolutely everything to his goal and his anger, if he's just got zero interest, or what, but I find it interesting.

Me too. I felt the same during the one scene so far where we saw him and Miranda having sex. The woman-on-top is not unusual for this show, but his behavior certainly was--he seemed distant, or uninterested, with the overall impression that this was for her but not for him. And the same questions come up--have all his other feelings been successfully channeled into blood-rage, is it the lingering resentment of being ashamed of himself for having listened to her and left with her instead of saving Thomas (if he even could have), is it dissociating/thinking of Thomas with her as intermediary...

When I say I finished a sentence, I mean that: I'd apparently left the document mid-sentence at one point, and I just went back and finished it.

*waves piratey flag* I've read that advice, that it's good to stop a writing session in the middle of a sentence, and I try to follow it. It at least gives me something I can do to get rolling the next time I open the document. There's no pressure, but just know that my eyeballs are out here for ya.

[movies_michelle]

J'ACCUSE! I actually started writing a response to this this morning, then glanced up halfway through typing to realize I needed to leave to catch my bus to work RIGHT NOW! So, I'm blaming you. Hope you're okay with that. :-) (I did make the bus.)

Miranda and Flint: I have many thoughts about their relationship and the role sex plays in it, but I would also argue that the one time we see (non-flashback) sex between them, Flint is also still being sulky and pissed off about her reading THAT BOOK to Richard Guthrie, which I was assuming changed the "tenor" of that exchange. :-)

I do tend to agree with feochadn who said during a recent conversation that she thought of Flint/McGraw as demi-sexual more than anything: less attracted based on gender, but almost entirely needing the emotional/intellectual component before he was sexually attracted to someone. I also have no problem seeing him as bisexual, if more attracted to men than women: he did sleep with Miranda first, though I'm always willing to entertain the idea of sublimation.

I do tend to think that whatever sexual component to Miranda and James' relationship was put on hold, at least, when James and Thomas became lovers. I think that it is part of their relationship over the course of the last 10 years, though how much of that is because they are all each other has left of Thomas is part of the complexity of their relationship.

The thing is, I don't like seeing fans totally dismiss Miranda and their relationship, since it's obviously a very complicated and important one. I just also can't dismiss how much mutual resentment they both feel for each other, even if they're bound together through love (of one stripe or another) as well. And, really, Flint has probably not been a picnic to live with (whenever she saw him) for the last 10 years, leather-clad-rageball that he is. And I think she's got her own reservoir of untapped rage that wasn't given anywhere to vent to the way Flint's was.

And can I say, once more, how much I love the showrunners and writers on this show for how willing they are to let a storyline play out long-term? The whole thing with Flint killing two people in cold blood on the Maria Elaine is first introduced in fairly early in the first season, and like Flint's backstory, you don't get the full scope of it until almost to the end of second season. And it's not done in any sort of "Oh we're going to tell you--NOPE!", but in this particularly organic way. I love it!

I do always appreciate your eyeballs. Writing this is once again making me want to sit down and finish the Thomas/James story I've got bits and pieces of. Of course, I have bits and pieces of about six different Black Sails stories, which I randomly peck at as the mood strikes, so....

[dorinda]

So, I'm blaming you.

I DID IT. YES, I DID IT, AND I'D DO IT AGAIN, I TELL YOU! AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *dons long leather coat, covers self in blood, rageballs around*

In other words: fair enough. :D

Flint is also still being sulky and pissed off about her reading THAT BOOK to Richard Guthrie

Hee hee, good point. "Oh okay FINE", he says, sulking whilst being ridden like a particularly ragey pony. :D

I think there are a lot of good options for James's complex sexuality, all interesting to think about. In the terms of today's times (oh the kids, oh my lawn), I could see demisexual (requiring emotional connection), bisexual/biromantic (sex with both, falls in love with both, with intensity possibly varying along the continuum), bisexual/homoromantic (sex with both, falls in love with men), homosexual/biromantic, or even mainly homosexual/homoromantic but with a necessary societally-acquired ability to sleep with a woman he likes, especially when she is the instigator. I figure a good fan writer could convince me of any of these angles or others.

Like you, however, I could never be convinced that Miranda could or should ever be dismissed. I mean, that smacks SO much of that weird "icky girls" erasure thing that squicks me out, not to mention that canon just cannot support it. She and younger-James obviously had their own dynamic back in the day, their own relationship of whatever stripe--as did Miranda and Thomas, who obviously loved and understood and supported each other. Granted, James and Thomas found true love, including the physical component of same, with each other, but that doesn't erase the other two sides of the interpersonal dynamics, however they played out.

And as you say, it is also inarguable that Miranda and Flint are important to each other now, and have been for the past ten years, in all kinds of complex ways--positive and negative ways, including their mutual resentment for different reasons.

And can I say, once more, how much I love the showrunners and writers on this show for how willing they are to let a storyline play out long-term?

ME TOO. A++++++++ WOULD ADMIRE AGAIN. It's so refreshing, compared to too many other shows that are the same underneath as they are on the surface, that have no depths to reveal. This show has layers, and it doesn't rush to blurt them all out on the page as soon as they think of them. The writers/runners lay their Thesean threads and let them spool out until it's time. GAH. *hugs them*

I do always appreciate your eyeballs.

I would like to see a Hallmark card with that sentiment in it.

Of course, I have bits and pieces of about six different Black Sails stories, which I randomly peck at as the mood strikes, so....

*\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/*

[movies_michelle]

More re: Thomas/Miranda/James: I have this head-canon, which may or may not end up in a story at some point, that after Miranda and James have sex the first time, Thomas basically comes to Miranda to get all the skinny on how James was in bed. I love the idea that even if sex wasn't a part of their relationship directly, that it is in some way.

Also head-canon, I do assume Thomas was homosexual, in modern terms, and was lucky enough or manipulated things enough where the woman he married ended up being his best friend, and he was all "I can't give you what you want sexually, so good luck with what you do find out there, but let me know how it goes." Thomas is also someone who strikes me as someone who needs that intellectual connection, which he obviously very much has with James. I can see him being attracted to James from the beginning, but I can't see him taking that risk without a damned good reason.

Re the long-game with showrunner's play with their storylines: Just to take a step back from the Flint, Thomas, and Miranda, that is also one of the reasons I love the Jack/Anne/Max dynamic as well as the Charles Vane/Jack/Anne dynamic. Jack, himself, unfolds as a character throughout the first three seasons in interesting ways, but you see his dynamic with Anne, Max, and Charles from very different angles each season. And you see Anne develop, not just exploring her sexuality with Max, but in trying to come to terms with what that means about her and Jack. (There's a particular scene at the end of second season between Jack and Anne which took multiple viewings before I realized Jack is crying at one point. Not sobbing, but just a little tear, and it shows exactly what that relationship means to him in such an incredible way.)

I really want to talk about Silver, too, as his development--and his changing relationship with Flint--is fascinating, but you really need to see through the end of season 2, at least, before I say anything. So let me know when you get there. :-)

[dorinda]

I do assume Thomas was homosexual, in modern terms

Yes, me too, and also agreed on Miranda being his best friend, both of them supporting each other, colluding to help each other have what they need. And I really like the idea of Miranda reporting back to Thomas about James. I'd love to see you write it! I imagine they always kept in touch about who was doing what, and how it was going for them, etc. And I bet that James already stood out in some way, even before he got as close to the both of them as he later became.

Thomas is also someone who strikes me as someone who needs that intellectual connection, which he obviously very much has with James.

Very much so indeed! And Thomas seems to thrive on James's independence and straightforwardness, the way James doesn't tell Thomas the things Thomas might want to hear just because he wants to hear them. Being a lord, I bet Thomas has had his fill and more of yes-men, sycophants, people who don't really think about their conversations and express their own frank opinions. James definitely isn't that kind of guy. :D

I am interested to see more of Jack! He brings such a different kind of texture to the field, I always enjoy watching him. I was just thinking yesterday about that scene with him and Anne, when she has him all tied up, but he's worried about his own concerns and can't stay hard. His courteous "No thank you" was a sheer delight.

but you really need to see through the end of season 2, at least, before I say anything. So let me know when you get there. :-)

I will definitely keep you posted!

[movies_michelle]

I was looking at what I had written for my Thomas/James story yesterday and YIKES! I didn't even think I could write something THAT purple. Still going to work on it, but need a massive overhaul. :-)

And Thomas seems to thrive on James's independence and straightforwardness, the way James doesn't tell Thomas the things Thomas might want to hear just because he wants to hear them.

As Thomas says, professionally he doesn't need someone who will be an echo-chamber for him, but someone who will try to poke holes in his arguments, to make those arguments stronger. And he's obviously someone who loves the Socratic method: Miranda makes comment to the pastor about how he would have loved to just argue with him, not because he wanted to tear him down, but because it was also ultimately how he showed his love. And James is someone who was never just going to change his mind because the person standing in front of him was either higher up or even particularly compelling a speaker: he's going to change his mind only because the argument has some merit.

And Thomas obviously wants that in his personal life. I can picture many a philosophical argument in front of a fire or in bed. Or both. :-)

I was just thinking yesterday about that scene with him and Anne, when she has him all tied up, but he's worried about his own concerns and can't stay hard. His courteous "No thank you" was a sheer delight.

I love that scene, both for how much it says about their relationship, but also because it shows you at least some of what they get up to sexually. It's such a casual offer and rejection, it's obviously not a new concept for either of them. (Which I shall also blatantly use in order to justify my desire for Jack/Charles Vane, which I can see as being a completely accepted, separate relationship from Jack/Anne.)

[dorinda]

Purple or not, I'm glad to hear there are words a-forming! My earliest roughs are often much more purple than my revisions, I suppose because first I'm kind of dumping the characters thoughts down on the page in order to get them straight (har) in my head. And then I cut most of that out and turn it into subtext and action and meaningful pauses, because that's how I rolllll.

And Thomas obviously wants that in his personal life. I can picture many a philosophical argument in front of a fire or in bed. Or both. :-)

Oh absolutely agreed, about Thomas loving to discuss and debate. And yes please, re: the fire and the bed! :D It feels like it makes Thomas a particular challenge to write, the way he shows and creates so much of his feelings and relationships through talk, talk, talk. And listening, too, of course, he's no monologuist. But someone who forms bonds through words, that means we have to come up with an awful lot of words for him! Oh Thomas, you couldn't be the strong-silent-type, could you. ♥

It's such a casual offer and rejection, it's obviously not a new concept for either of them. (Which I shall also blatantly use in order to justify my desire for Jack/Charles Vane, which I can see as being a completely accepted, separate relationship from Jack/Anne.)

I could buy that! Jack is obviously not afraid of being penetrated, and I can imagine Vane topping him for various reasons of his/their own, in the hierarchy of that crew. And to get a little fanciful about it for a sec, Vane is in some ways so animalistic--not a criticism, and not downplaying his reason and intelligence, but out of all of them he seems most to operate like a predatory beast. I mean, even early on when he climbs out of the very grave, naked, covered in dirt, to kill wossname with his bare hands, he's an embodiment of pure animal id. And the existence of mounting-dominance among many animals is well attested, and not even necessarily correlated with aggression.

[klia]

I loved Flint from the start. And Gates. And Billy. It's a brutal show, making me care about characters, then having them turn on each other -- which, yeah, I kind of expected, but it was still tough to watch.

I have to say, Vane and Silver were the characters that really turned around for me as the show went on. They started out fairly one-dimensional for me, but by the end of S2, I was like... wow. They're rarely predictable, which I appreciate. Hats off to the writers.

I wish I wasn't still struggling to even like Eleanor and Max a little, but I am.

I also need to finally watch S3. I'd been saving it for summer, when I wouldn't have much else to distract me -- only I was wrong about that. Eeep.

[dorinda]

Agggh, I loved Gates. It actually felt like he was the closest thing we had to a POV character--not a larger-than-life persona, but instead a good lieutenant, running the ship and the crew, trying to keep problems from rising. His fate broke my heart, and yet as I was saying above to m_m, I can see why it happened. Pure tragedy. :(((

I like Billy, but I have to say I don't quite have a grasp on him yet. I feel like I'll need more time. Because so far, mostly he's been reacting, instead of acting. So I don't know what he wants, who he is, etc.

They really do keep turning on each other, which in a larger sense is (not to be repetitive) part of the overall tragedy, I think. If they were somehow able to unite, it feels like they could achieve so much more, actually have their own kingdom of sorts. But they keep tearing at each other, chopping things up into petty fiefdoms. It's a shortsighted view of what power means, which is their biggest failing. Though it does tie into the dynamic of Treasure Island and of the pirate mythos in general, I think... this tunnel vision effort to be the only one who gets the treasure, the only one who gets the power, and no grasp on any larger collective goal. Penny-wise, pound-foolish.

And this, despite the way the crews share prize money, vote officers in, etc. That kind of collective action seems to be as far as anyone gets toward unity, and it always seems shaky--crews easily put at odds, mutiny fomenting, fear that someone else is going to cheat you out of your share, etc.

I was telling sakana17 above, maybe I'll catch up in time to watch season 3 along with you guys. :D

[dorinda]

And re: the third paragraph about power, etc., that's one of the things that's so heartbreaking about Flint. He has a different view and a different end-goal, but he unfortunately knows that he'll have to sneak up on it, because of the general inability of that community to see the reason and logic of it, put off their immediate gratification, and band together to achieve it. He's looking to a future, and the rest of them never do.

[kerithwyn]

Husband and I just finished s1, which we enjoyed on a very casual level. (Popcorn tv, minus the rapey bits.) We'll keep going as time permits, since everyone assures us that s2 considerably builds on the foundation!

[dorinda]

I am enjoying season 2 much more than season 1! I feel much more interested now, more emotionally connected (not to everyone equally, granted).

[killabeez]

I, too, watched the pilot (and I think episode 2?) but wasn't grabbed. Then I watched a current ep with Destina in February, and it was much more interesting, so I'm planning to catch up. After I catch up on Peaky Blinders, because now I'm hooked on that one.

[dorinda]

I was telling halotolerant that before I ever watched it, I kept hearing people say 'Stick it out through season 1, season 2 really hits its stride'...and now I find that's exactly what I'm saying. :D

I have Peaky Blinders in my Netflix streaming queue--I'm glad to hear it's good! I do love Cillian Murphy and Sam Neill and Tom Hardy.

[gwyn]

Huh, that's interesting. I"ve seen stuff on my tumblr dash, but I just assumed it wasn't for me, because I watched much of the first half season when it came out and I was just bleh. I couldn't for the life of me tell half the characters apart and couldn't remember anyone's name (it seemed like they also were only rarely referred to by name), and I wasn't really paying attention because it was just another show without nudity parity and I'm so tired of that--all boobs and full frontal women all the time, and the guys get coy "we know there's a peen behind that artfully draped sheet or thigh or whatever" not to mention the rapeyness. Then everyone was talking about the...one guy…kissing the other guy…and I watched that and thought huh, that's unexpected. I've seen bits and pieces of the new season when I'm flipping to Starz for something else. But now it sounds like it might be worth it to chug through that stuff I hate, that there's stuff I like buried in there too.

Dammit. ::shakes fist at you::

[dorinda]

Yeah, sadly, the nudity parity remains lopsided. And I too found that offputting when I was first watching, because it felt like, "WHOAH GETTA LOAD OF THIS" *naked ladies naked ladies*. Which unfortunately meant that the reveal of Max/Eleanor could kind of get lumped in there, and seem like Sexay Gratuitous Girl-on-Girl instead of an actual relationship dynamic that's important to the story.

It makes me miss Spartacus, which was eventually "naked dudes everywhere!". So refreshing.

We have occasionally gotten some naked male backside on Black Sails--seems like the one most willing to get nyood is the guy playing Charles Vane, the growly-voiced tiny-eyed very-long-haired glossy-skinned pirate guy. He's the one we've gotten a (very brief) almost-full-frontal of (at least up to where I am, 2x02), though he was covered in dirt at the time. And I know it's not classy to talk about dick size, but, oh my. Well well. Ahem.

The one guy kissing the other guy is definitely part of a great bit of writing, a backstory that ends up putting so many of the puzzle pieces together about Flint. Tragic backstory, though. I feel that the whole series is (and sort of has to be, given its position as a Treasure Island prequel) a tragedy.

Given that, it's hard to say if you should force yourself through. Maybe after it concludes (season 4 will be their last, and airs next year), it'll be easier to predict whether it would end up worth it to you, or whether you should skip it (or watch in fast-forward-vision).

I'm curious to know if anyone's done any good vids for it yet. It wasn't on my radar before, so if anyone recced anything, I'm sure I missed it.

[klia]

I haven't watched S3 yet, but, just FYI, I ff'd through most of the sex scenes in S1 and 2 (I have zero interest in sex workers/brothels, and didn't care to see certain other characters getting busy) and didn't miss anything of consequence, plot-wise (a mutual friend assured me). So, feel free to do the same.

[the_shoshanna]

I, um, hope to watch this someday!

[dorinda]

I'm sure it'll be available (from friends and elsewhere) if you should feel like it in future!

I definitely think you should watch it with a friendly annotator. As gwyn mentioned above, at least at first it can be hard to remember who's who, and I suspect that with some of the characters it might be a challenge for you, facewise. Not to mention that an important secondary character gets recast with a new actor at the beginning of season 2 (which I find disappointing; granted I'm only a few eps in to season 2, but I still like the S1 guy better. More of the odd mixture of vulnerability, uncertainty, and thoughtful calmness that I think themes his character).

But I do recommend it!

[sakana17]

I'd momentarily forgotten about the recasting... But yeah, I liked S1 actor better, too. He brought something more nuanced to that character, I felt. Ah well.

Anyway, so glad to come back to the thread days later and see all this interesting discussion! Yay!

I definitely agree with the advice to others that you can skim the rapey/nekkid ladies bits and not miss anything interesting. I just get to those parts, eyeroll and think, "Cable show." *sigh* OTOH, the sad part of the gratuitous crap is, to me, that it distracts from the overall quality of the show. What I mean is, one looks at the tits and bush shots and assumes "oh ho ho a ridiculous sexploitation cheap-ass cable show! And about pirates! Har-dee-har, like "Pirates of the Caribbean" for the Playboy Channel." When the show is actually much better and much more layered and, well, serious.

[dorinda]

What I mean is, one looks at the tits and bush shots and assumes "oh ho ho a ridiculous sexploitation cheap-ass cable show!

That was unfortunately part of what made me initially shrug and not pursue it, when I watched the pilot. Although I think that the show also (and especially as it goes along and gets better in general) handles explicit sex really well, and for important character and plot reasons. Like, where I'm at in the story of Anne and Max and Jack, so much of Anne's conflict is about her sexuality and the needs of her body. And there's that scene where she's asked Jack to come into the bed with them to "watch her back", but then wordlessly as the sex proceeds onscreen, a new thread of conflict is introduced. It does the work of any good dialogue scene, only using their bodies and faces and sex, just what I'd want any good written sex scene to do as well.