Oh chapter my chapter?

[dorinda]

Speaking of comments and critique, I could use some advice on chapters, chaptering, and whether/when/whatnot, if anyone has thoughts on the topic.

I've had two commenters on different stories object to said stories being long but not chaptered--When a Man's an Empty Kettle (Almost Human John/Dorian) at about 40K words, and The Sound Below Sound (LotR Legolas/Gimli) at about 35.5K words.

The Almost Human commenter said "Far too long for a one chapter story" and implied that she therefore might not have read it, without explaining why, but the LotR commenter went into more detail and talked about "at many stages I found that I'd love to comment or applaud but unfortunately it's not easy going up and down each time. Plus I would have to give a proper ref as to which part I was doing it for etc." Apparently chaptering felt mandatory to her in order to "comment as you go".

So what do you do with a completed one-shot story that's not a WIP, not written with chapter breaks in mind, but is long? Do you ever chapter it, apparently to provide some kind of ease in commenting? It's not actually something I've ever thought of, because I've never had trouble remembering (or skimming back to find) bits I wanted to quote or comment on.

After that comment on the LotR story I did vaguely consider retroactively chaptering it, but admittedly have not yet sat down and done a fresh close reading to figure out where I would put chapter breaks if any. I am seized at the thought by a foglike blanket of ennui. But if it makes big stories easier to read somehow, more welcoming or whatever, I could imagine putting in the work. Is it a developing custom, or a comment-coincidence, or...?

Comments

[newredshoes]

I usually don't conceive of my longest fics as chaptered, but I think this might be something of a relic from when posting on LJ necessitated word limits. That said, when I do break up my longer pieces into multiple pages on AO3, I do it under the assumption that it's easier for the reader to find their place or to pause without worrying about losing where they were. I don't come up with chapter titles, necessarily, but if I find a spot that will make the reader want to keep clicking forward, that's where I'll make my division.

[dorinda]

I suspect that one reason the 'lost my place' issue has never come up for me is that I so often read stories from AO3 via the download function, which means I can swoop it easily and directly into ibooks or kindle on my phone, and in there it'll automatically be paginated and have bookmark functions, so I can't get lost. Granted, this means I have to remember to go back to the original story to write a comment--can't do that in the kindle app.

When you break your stories up on AO3, what kind of length are we talking?

[newredshoes]

I mostly don't tend to write that long, but: I've got a 15K, a 19K and a 27K (yikes!) that are one page, and I'd definitely break those up today (I think putting them on one page was a point of pride at the time they were uploaded, given, again that we were forced to break them up on LJ), plus a 45K that's 10 chapters and a 24K that's six chapters, for instance. My sweet spot is about 4K-8K max for one-shots, so I usually shoot for that in chapter lengths.

[dorinda]

Hmmmm, interesting! I'm definitely coming from a different place, where those don't feel at all too long to me, so it's valuable for me to get a sense of where the too-long-line is for other people. Thanks for the help!

[lynndyre]

I have no idea. It's not something I tend to think about when reading longfic- I'm often the opposite, I want a format I can save into one file if I love the story.

Chaptering is useful for something that's posting as a wip, but I've never run into the idea that it was somehow *better*.

[dorinda]

Yeah, this is all foreign ground for me--I've never said, you know, "gee I wish this story came in a bunch of little chunks." Though on the other hand, AO3 has the one-touch 'full story' link that you can go to (and I often do, if I've been sent just to chapter 1), so it's easy for me (who prefers one-big-story) to go to my preferred format, whereas the people who wish a big single story was carved into chapters don't have that option. Poor things.

[isis]

I don't have a problem with long unchaptered works, as long as there are scene breaks (either explicit or implicit) where I can stop reading and put the story aside for later.

The longest stories I've written (four of them ranging from 23k to 50k) are all chaptered, but: one was posted as a WIP because I didn't know better :-); one was posted as a WIP because the first chapter was submitted as a stand-alone to a fandom community challenge, and then I wrote the rest; one (the longest) I chaptered from the beginning because it seemed appropriate stylistically (long casefic covering a lot of time); and one I initially wrote without chaptering but cynically chaptered and posted one section at a time because I was angling for comments, and I'd heard complaints in this fandom (which skews young and Tumblr) that people didn't read long fic unless it was posted in bits.

This last one I started considering how I would break it up before I was done, but when I was nearly done. It's largely told in flashback within a framing story, and the flashback covers several years, so I split it up partly according to time jumps, but trying to keep each section about the same length. For example, the first chapter sets up the frame story and then gives the first part of flashback ending at a logical point that explains why the frame story is even possible. The second chapter begins with a return to the frame story in the present, and then returns to the flashback and ends with a major event. The third chapter picks up the flashback after some time has passed, but is about the consequences of the major event. And so on.

I have also written three stories of around 20k that are not chaptered. As I said, I don't think it's a big deal.

[dorinda]

I think those are all perfectly valid reasons for chaptering! And I can imagine using chapters to help with structural/stylistic reasons, that's a good point. Thus far, when I've had something stylistic like interspersed flashbacks, I usually just separated the sections with the HR tag to give visual cues (plus additional things like a change of tense, or a date header, etc.)...but then, none of those were 50K. :D

[elynross]

I was thinking that using those places where you would normally indicate a scene change or change in action, etc., would be the point to make chapter breaks, if you wanted to. I don't know that I'd worry too much about making them equal length, more than you do (I remember that I used to try and make those transitions roughly equal, anyway, don't know if you do that).

[alchemise]

I do find chapters make it easier to keep track of where I am because I rarely have time to read an entire long fic in one sitting. On the other hand, most really long fic I download to read on my nook so then it doesn't matter.

[dorinda]

That's my thing, I think--I almost always download really long things right into my phone's ibook or kindle apps, and in there there are automatic pagination and bookmark functions and highlighting and search, and anything else I'd need to stay oriented. So actually wishing for chapters has never yet come up, for me.

[nestra]

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that. Though I would say, that if someone really wanted to comment as they read, they could just open a text editor and compose it.

I can definitely see the advantage of chapters = more comments/interaction, though anything longer than about 1,000 words gets downloaded for my Kindle. But on its own, if I wasn't accustomed to structuring stories like that, I don't think it would tip me over.

[dorinda]

That's what I do sometimes, if I'm reading something really long on my laptop--I have some other bare bones program, my email or a notepad or whatever, and I copy/paste lines I want to comment on.

But as you mention, so much more often I just directly download long stuff to my kindle or ibooks app, and the whole issue is moot. I can easily save my place, search for words or phrases if I want to find them again, etc.

Oh, help me Jeebus

[xworks]

Please. A 40k story is perfectly manageable in one page. I chaptered a 135k story, but just because it was alternating POVs and it felt like it needed it. I never chapter my stories. Frankly, I think chapters in the A03 are kind of awkward to read and clunky. You should do what you want—you're the author:)

Re: Oh, help me Jeebus

[dorinda]

135K, allow me to take my hat off to you! I've never yet written that long. :D The alternating POVs seem like a perfect reason for chaptering.

As for what I want...that's what I'm trying to figure out, I think. The more I consider it, the less I feel likely to go back and artificially chapter my 35-40K stories. Largely because it feels far too artificial, and a story not written with that structure in mind just wouldn't read right. There's a feeling and a rhythm to a story's structure, and if it doesn't call for something big like a chapter split, then it doesn't.

Re: Oh, help me Jeebus

[xworks]

Sorry—just saw this:/ Yeah, the 135k was a surprise to me—I usually top out at about 50 to 60k. And so much yes to following your instincts on the chaptering—if you feel like you're doing to make someone else happy, then it's not worth doing:/

[klia]

FWIW, I think of your longer stories as novellas, and if memory serves, those don't usually have chapters, do they?

Bottom line, you should format and arrange your stories however you want, and not let random people guilt or bully you into doing something tailored to their short attention span.

[dorinda]

Oh yes, good point! I don't know if there's an official style guide or anything, but in my mind, at least, novellas feel all of a piece. The ones I can remember are generally split up just with section breaks, not chapters. And that's how I've been going so far with my own stuff.

At the moment, I'm not feeling an urge to retroactively chop my longer stories up into bits--as I mentioned above to X, I feel like rhythm and structure comes from within a story, and if I didn't have chaptering in mind when I finished shaping the rhythm and structure, then it feels like it wouldn't suit.

[torch]

My unhelpful two cents: I do get the impression, particularly in newer fandoms, that chapters are the expected way to go. Mainly because of the tendency to post longer stories as WIPs. The chaptering I've done of my two long stories in recent years was because of AO3's size limitations when it comes to how much text you can post as a one-shot. Which now, looking back, was probably fortunate, because that would have been really a lot of text all at once.

I wouldn't expect a story of 35-40k to have chapters; it seems a perfect self-contained length to me. A novella, as Klia said, meant to be the shape and size it is. Of course it depends on the actual structure and contents of said story, so I should probably specify to say that your stories never struck me as in any need of subdivision. They move seamlessly from beginning to end.

Ease of feedback is always a compelling argument for writers. Unhelpful final words: you get to choose. Do what feels most natural for you, what you're comfortable with, what you'd like to see yourself, what you think would work best for whatever purpose you find most important.

(I'm still debating with myself what to do with the current story, which is 31k so far and will hopefully end up in the 35-40k range when it's done. So I'm going over the possibilities for my own benefit as much as yours, I guess...)

[dorinda]

I was curious if it's some sort of newer wave of expectation! Hmmm. I mean, I do like to keep changing mores and requests in mind, but on the other hand I don't write WIPs and I haven't yet written something where it wouldn't fit in the box. (40K is my longest so far, which when compared to the heavy hitters is nothing! :D ) And I've felt so far that my stories were all of a piece.

But I admit, it did give me a twinge, to get two different commenters complain in the same way--and both imply that seeing that length in a single chapter easily might have made them skip the story altogether. I want people to read my stories! *kicks feet* But then, I'm not someone who works on 'marketing' myself, audience optimization etc. I know myself well enough to know I wouldn't have any fun trying to treat it as a business, and I really need to have fun. I just trundle along with my little hobby thing, and post them with a bow on, and trundle away.

I will at the very least be more aware of chaptering and its reasons in future, however. If I end up writing something that gets long and feels inherently chaptery...who knows?

[liviapenn]

That's really surprising to me! Personally, certain types of chaptered stories really bother me. Nothing is more annoying than trying to sink into some fantastic, engrossing narrative but getting pulled out of it every 2000 words by three paragraphs of the author giving shout outs to their friends, mentioning what song they were listening to while they wrote this chapter, explaining every obvious cultural reference, explaining that they'll try and write the next chapter if they don't have to do laundry this weekend, etc., etc. It's just awful, to the point where I wish there was some kind of browser extension that would automatically hide all chapter/author notes. So unless there's a natural breaking point where you feel a chapter break would enhance the story, I wouldn't bother with it if I were you.

[gwyn]

Oh god yes, yes, yes. I hate that.

Also, now that I'm an Old, reading AO3 type is often hard on longer stories and many times chaptered works mean I have no option to read in iPad's Reader view--I am forced to go chapter to chapter, which I hate.

The thing is, you can't please everyone, so you have to please yourself--and anyway, some of that sounds awfully entitled and like, "do what I want or I won't read/comment" ugh.

[dorinda]

I unfortunately did get a whiff of "do what I want or I won't read/comment" from both of these commenters--one of them basically saying "if it were chaptered I would've been able to comment a lot!" and the other saying "since it was sooo lonnnng but not chaptered I almost didn't read it!"

And I mean, I would like people not to be scared away from my stories, and would like them to be able to comment...but I don't think at this point I feel like arbitrary chaptering is something I want to do. Unless a story I write in future ends up calling for it.

[dorinda]

Oh god I didn't even think about the terror that is constant interspersed author's notes. Those definitely push me out of the story, ecch.

Upon mature (ha ha as if) consideration, I figure I'm not planning to arbitrarily chapter things just in the hope that I'll catch the chapterphiles' attention. But as you say, if something ends up calling for chapters structurally/rhythmically, I'll still have the option.

[ceares]

It feels like a fangeneration divide here, where younger or newer fen are used to fics posted as WiP or in chapters because of ff.net, lj and now AO3 and I believe people tend to post in bits and pieces on Tumblr where as older archives tended to want the whole fic and so that's what I'm used to reading. If I see a chaptered fic now, I assume it was written and posted that way.

Like you, I automatically choose to read the entire fic and like one of your commenters, it can get annoying dealing with the author notes at the beginning of every chapter.

I'd say write and post however you're comfortable, really.

[dorinda]

Yeah, I am getting that generational sense. Sometimes when a generational shift ends up dominating, I shift along with it, especially if it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. But here, I don't think I'm likely to start chaptering things just to chapter them. I figure the story and its structure/rhythm are going to have to be my guide.

[arduinna]

Hey, you! *waves madly*

I am so intrigued by this, because it does seem to be a generational thing, but. Like,

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<user=newredshoes>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Hey, you! *waves madly*

I am so intrigued by this, because it does seem to be a generational thing, but. Like, <user=newredshoes> saying that 4k-8k words is their sweet spot for one section/chapter/break point. The first thing I thought when I saw that was "oh, that's about how long an email to a fic list could be - I used to be able to do that by feel as I wrote!" I used to deliberately aim for being able to break smoothly at around that length, even if I wasn't technically doing chapters. So one one level I'm just nodding along thinking "oh, sure, right, yes."

But on another level, for me that's how fic looks when it's being sent ephemerally. Once it's on an archive (personal or public), it's one file. Hmm. Sort of like, the first version is what gets serialized out into the magazine that is fandom hot off the press, but then it gets collated and put into a book that you can just read straight through without a break if you want to immerse yourself in it.

With AO3 being the first stop for fic now, rather than the place you go to find things you may have missed or re-read an old favorite, it makes an odd sort of sense to me that people would want the more serialized format to keep that sense of immediacy/excitement. Even if personally I want it all in one long immersive file. *g*

I have no real conclusion here. Just. Really interesting concept all around!

[arduinna]

Dammit. I knew I shoulda previewed. newredshoes. Sigh.

[dorinda]

Hi back, pal!!

Yeah, I see what you mean. And now that you mention it, I feel the same way--like, I wrote giglet a Sting story for her fandom stocking, and in its "original" form it was posted in three LJ comments, due to length. But then later, I posted it in AO3, and didn't even consider breaking it into those same three parts--the single unified story felt like the "final" version, whereas the version in parts seemed, as you say, ephemeral.

I think in the end it's hard for me to put on a chapter-loving-reader hat, to figure out what they might like, because of how strongly I prefer (and for how long, by now!) to read stories in a single unified block. I always use the "full work" button when reading on the ao3 website, for instance. And I feel like I have a really long attention span. So I don't have a good instinct for the 'serialized sense of excitement', and whether/when/how to create it.